John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up ON THE LAST DAY. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY.”41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up ON THE LAST DAY.
Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ WILL RISE FIRST.17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
Matthew 24:29 “Immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 THEN will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man COMING ON THE CLOUDS of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
2 Thess. 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
When does our Lord come in the clouds? By His own lips: “AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS!” When are His people “gathered together” according to Paul? At His coming, which will be heralded by the LAST TRUMP – which is when the dead in Christ are raised first ON THE LAST DAY! It cannot possibly be more clear. It only takes a “theologian” to screw this all up. Seriously (and I’m sure a few will show up in the comments below to prove the point). Just read the text for yourself and stop adding all sorts of anecdotes to it.
Paul tells us not to let men deceive us concerning this issue. He further states that the “man of sin” – the lawless one – the Antichrist must first be revealed and second, take his seat in the holy place, proclaiming himself to be God. Even in your standard Dispensation eschatology, that’s generally understood to be a mid-Trib event, usually recognized as “the abomination of desolation.” So the best you could possibly hope for from Paul would be a mid-Trib Rapture. But as we’ve already seen, Yeshua clarifies the issue with repeated statements pointing toward the end of the Tribulation and the raising of the saints ON THE LAST DAY. And by the way, Yeshua also had begun His discussion with the disciples by giving the same warning concerning the Last Days:
Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
They asked Him what the signs of His coming and the end of the world would be. Notice the first thing He said in answer to their question was that they take heed not to be deceived! He then proceeds to give them a bunch of signs, which would herald His return and the end of the world. Don’t you think that the most massive of all unmistakable signs He could possibly have given them would be the witnessing of millions of people flying up into the sky?? Even if you are a Dispensationalist and think the Olivet Discourse was directed only “to the Jews,” that is still a massively huge sign to leave out, don’t you think? Yeshua left the biggest and most unmistakable of all signs out, only mentioning His coming in the clouds as a concluding sign “After the the tribulation of those days…”
Getting back to the “on the last day” issue, we also have John confirming the timing of the rising of the saints:
Revelation 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. THEY CAME TO LIFE and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Sorry Pre-Tribbers, but your doctrine fails the test of Scripture miserably. You not only grossly misrepresent what the text actually says, but your belief requires TWO “first resurrections,” TWO “second comings” and multiple “LAST trumps,” and you are blatantly disregarding Yeshua’s own words (three times no less – in the red print) that He was going to raise His followers up on the LAST DAY, not prior to seven years of Tribulation. In short, you have zero Biblical support and only the contrived opinions of men who read into the text ideas found nowhere therein. Hence you may be running the risk of being the “deceivers” both Yeshua and Paul warned us about.
With all this said, please know that I do not believe this is a “salvation issue,” so there’s no reason to get hostile about differing points of view. We’ll be better off agreeing to disagree at this point. I was a hardcore pre-Tribber for over 30 years. There’s not much anyone can tell me about it that I didn’t already know and teach myself. I know the arguments quite well. But I have since realized how wrong most of it is, and the above is just a tiny example of why. So, honestly, it’s highly unlikely anyone is going to convince me otherwise.
Enoch was Raptured 700 years BEFORE the Flood in a time of peace, which followed the 500 year “clash of the Titans” (according to the book of Enoch). So, if anything he’s a prime example of a post-Trib Rapture and a horrible example to be used for any justification of the pre-Trib view. Noah remained ON THE EARTH during the worst judgment of YHWH this world has ever seen to date. Lot and his family were preserved ON THE EARTH while YHWH poured out His wrath on Sodom and Gomorrah. The Israelites remained preserved ON THE EARTH in Goshen during YHWH’s wrath being poured out on Egypt. In EVERY example we have of YHWH’s wrath being poured out, we see His people being preserved ON THE EARTH and the bad guys being taken away/wiped out. The End Times will be no different – until the final judgement on the LAST DAY at the LAST TRUMP. At that time, we will indeed be Raptured in accordance with all the Scriptures stated above and more.
– Rob Skiba
Nice article, brother. Great points!
It’s 9 times out of 10 those that incorrectly believe YHVH/YHWH/YAHWEY/YAHUAH is the Creator God, instead of JESUS THE FATHER. THE GODHEAD. Colossians 2:9 in Jesus do all of the fullness of THE GODHEAD! JESUS THE FATHER, Jesus The Son/Christ, Jesus The Holy Spirit.
There are 101 Scriptures that teach [US-WE] the Israelites that accept Jesus Christ now won’t be here for the tribulation, and for the wrath on the Great & Terrible day of the The LORD God; Jesus Christ. THE GODHEAD. The Rapture is very real. The tribulation of those days (Matthew 24) speaks of the tribulations at the end of the church age, not at the end of the great tribulation. Did Jesus tell the apostles they would have tribulation before the end of the world? Of course He did. They had great tribulation considering the ways their lives were ended.
Jesus Christ told us “TO WATCH” because He might come back at any time, “suddenly.” Did Jesus tell us to always be looking down at our smart devices like the iPhone, the iPad? No, he told us to look up for our redemption draweth nigh. Why would He tell us to look up? It’s because that is where we will meet Him.
There is a reason there are 101 RAPTURE SCRIPTURES in The Old Testament and The New Testament combined. There is a reason (Revelation 4:1) says “Come up Hither.” That is the pre-tribulation door opening. There is a reason (Revelation 11:12) says “Come up Hither.” That is the mid-tribulation door opening.
The teaching of “The Rapture Doctrine” does not begin with John Nelson Darby in the 1800s. The teaching of the “Rapture Doctrine” goes back to the days of the apostles, Jesus Christ Himself, and all the way back to the very beginning when “ADAMIC” Enoch was told of the Rapture by [JESUS THE FATHER, THEE CREATOR GOD], (Moses 7:63-67). There is a reason that these books called extra biblical texts were taken out of the canon by the Roman Catholic Church. because they have too much truth in them know that again did not want to get it out. So of course they will say these books are corrupted, and to not take them literally. What else would they say?
After the apostles taught the Christian church about the Rapture doctrine, BISHOP IRENAEUS LYONS (120-202 A.D.) was an “ADAMIC” [man] “formed” by [JESUS THE FATHER] in (Genesis 2:7-22). LYONS was a direct disciple of the Apostle John. He believed that he was interpreting Scripture in the same hermeneutic as the Apostles. This connection to Jesus was important to LYONS because he based all of his beliefs on the Scriptures spoken by Jesus and the apostles John and Paul. LYONS argued that since he could trace his authority directly to Jesus, his interpretations of Scriptures were correct. He certainly taught a literal reign of Christ on the earth, a literal nation to be restored of Israel in the future (which has already happened here in (The United States of Israel-JerUSAlem) and a translation of “The Saints” before the tribulation period begins. The pre-tribulation Rapture will be no secret.
(Moses 7:62) And righteousness will I send down (out of Heaven); and truth will I (JESUS THE FATHER) send forth (out of the earth,) to bear testimony of MINE Only Begotten (Jesus Christ); His resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all “ADAMIC” [men, women, and children]; and righteousness (Heavenly Angels) and truth, will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out [mine elect] from the four quarters of the “Flat Earth” unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that [MY people] [ADAMIC man, woman, and child] may gird up [their] loins, and be looking forth for the time of MY coming; for there shall be MY tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, the final New Jerusalem.
63 And JESUS THE FATHER said unto Adamic Enoch: Then shalt thou and all thy city [“meet them there”], and [WE] will receive [them] [every ADAMIC man, woman, and child] into [OUR] bosom, and [they] shall see [US]; and [WE] will fall upon [their] necks, and [they] shall fall upon [OUR] necks, and [WE] will kiss [each other]. (1 Thessalonians 4:17) For The Lord Jesus Christ Himself will descend from Heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God speak [1 Corinthians 15:55 King James Version: “O death where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?”] [the dead in Christ] will rise first. 17 After that, [WE-ADAMIC ISRAEL-THE SAINTS-THE CHRISTIANS-ADAMIC ISRAEL] who are alive and remaining will be caught up [together] (THE RAPTURE) with [them] in the clouds to meet The Lord Jesus Christ in the air. And so [we] will always be with Jesus Christ [where HE is, not where we are]. (Zechariah 14:21) in that day (millennium) there shall be “NO MORE” Canaanites (negroes) in the House of the LORD of hosts; JESUS THE FATHER. Deuteronomy 23:3 In the millennium, “No Cainites/Canaanites/Kenites/Ammonite/Moabites/Edomites/Babylonians/Kassites/black Phoenicians/Carthaginians/ nor any of their black/copper descendants of Cain may enter the house of the LORD.” Revelation 3:10) Because thou hast kept the word of MY patience, I (with 100% guarantee) will keep [thee-every ADAMIC man, woman, and child] from the hour of testing that is coming upon the whole earth“ (i.e., the Wrath, the Tribulation Period). (I Thessalonians 4:18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.…(Revelation 22:20) Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!
Number 8 Biblical Meaning: A new start of something fresh: The number 8 in biblical terms is a representation of a new beginning. The eight-day is the beginning of a new week. If we look for biblical signs of the number 8 we can see that 8 people are saved on Noah’s Ark and there is also a new beginning. (Peter 2:5) in terms of the Bible, the number 8 is quite significant because it is used in total 73 times. Obviously is not used as much as the number seven. If we think about when God rested this was on the seventh and eighth day and a new start had begun. From a spiritual perspective, 8 is also a symbol of a new phase of life and that one is going to be focused on understanding humanity. The number eight is also a symbolism of a new start, this is because of the resurrection of Jesus (Matthew 28:16) Being saved from sin and error. Freeing yourself from sin. There are many ramifications of the number 8, such as 88, 888, 8888 or 88888. The number 8 is associated with the resurrection of Christ on the 8th day.
We are 26 days away from 88,888 days from the birth of The United States of Israel. July 4th, 1776. Give that some thought.
A FINAL WARNING: He who blasphemes the Name of JESUS, shall be put to death.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS YAHWEY-THE FATHER! Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of Heaven.
Then Jesus Christ shall say to those on the left that are black, depart from Me you cursed ones, (serpent seed negro descendants of Cain) into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the black devil and his black fallen angels. 1 John 4:3 And every spirit (or man) that confesseth not that “JESUS THE FATHER IS COME IN THE FLESH of a man in Jesus Christ” is not of The LORD God in the Bible: and this is that spirit of antichrist. THERE IS 1 LORD, 1 FAITH, 1 BAPTISM, 1 NAME, 1 JESUS. JESUS IS THE ELOHIM. JESUS IS THE GODHEAD. JESUS THE FATHER, JESUS THE SON/CHRIST, JESUS THE HOLY SPIRIT. JESUS IS THEE CREATOR GOD!
Good read. It’s truly amazing how we humans sometimes want to believe something so badly that we’re willing to ignore Yeshua’s actual spoken words to supposedly attain what we desire.
Rob, how would you respond to those who would quote Matt 24:39-41?
…39and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40″Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41″Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.…
It seems like that scripture describes a rapture that occurs much earlier than the end of the tribulation period – and for those who are alive. At the end of the tribulation period, is it likely there will be people grinding at the mill, or together in the field, as though things were just normal and as they are now?
I would very much like to get a handle on the issue. Thank you for your time, Rob. I could not post this question on your FB page, as I am not a friend, and your friend-quota is full.
During the Flood, who was taken away and who stayed behind, safe and sound?
I believe the one taken is taken for judgement. The one left behind is going to be a flesh and blood saint that lives on into the millennial, reconstructed Earth. Daniel talks about how blessed the people will be that make it through the reconstructed phase of the Earth, (I believe 75 days?) as they will enter into Yeshua’s kingdom in their flesh and blood bodies. They will still reproduce children during this period, so we know they are not Raptured saints as their body has not been reconstituted. So I believe this verse does NOT talk about the Rapture.
You are correct Lori. I am glad you brought up those verses. I am on the same page. I feel Rob is way off base, and there’s always those that will bend the word of God, to make their views believable by many. All I know, is I won’t be here for the tribulation, and that’s comforting to me.
Did you not understand Rob’s answer? The unsuspecting ones taken away in the flood according to these scriptures were the unbelievers. The ones remaining are the believers who are instructed to keep watch. Therefore there is no pretrib rapture that will prevent you or anyone else from going through the tribulation. Jesus already told us exactly when he will return as thief in Rev 16:15; right before the battle of Armageddon (Rev 16:16). I prefer to take Jesus at his word.
Joy,
Comfort is not an attitude of a christian who would want to take up her cross and follow Jesus Christ.
Psalm 51:12
Restore to me the JOY of your salvation, and UPHOLD me with a willing spirit.
Are you willing?
i believe in this regard, the point being driven home is “understanding”. So as one the rains for the flood came, only then did the people understand, while the 8 saved where already on the boat.
the ones “left in the field” will understand only when it is already too late.
Yes, it is very likely. In fact, when the two witnesses are killed, the world has a party and they send gifts to each other.
Many people mistake the symbolism in Revelation for literal events. God’s wrath is even now being revealed. It always has been. It will increase during the last days, but like the proverbial frog in a pot of heated water, most will not realize that the end is near. People will be eating and drinking, marrying and being given in marriage, even in the midst of natural disasters, plagues, and wars. In fact, all these things are happening now.
Lori Carson the scripture referring to one will be taken and the other left does not refer to the rapture. Instead it refers to a capture. One will be capture and taken into captivity for being a Christian and the other nob christian will be left and not taken into captivity because they are not Christian.
NO not at all Rob is actually spot on ,and its becoming easier to see what he has brought as truth !!! Shalom
Rob, you are not separating the Church from Israel. There are two different events. The Church, comprised of both Gentile and Israel believers belong to the “fullness of the times of the Gentiles”
1Th 4:13-18
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”
Notice the “will God bring with Him.” The believers from the Church age are the ones who are to be resurrected, both dead and alive.
“For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.”
Again, there are the dead believers, coming with Christ to receive their resurrection bodies, and the alive believers whose bodies will be changed and who will meet Christ IN THE AIR.
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”
You will recall that it is the Feast of Trumpets which is next once the Fall feasts begin. Here you have the first of the two trumpets being sounded.
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
When Christ’s Second Coming takes place, He comes to the Mount of Olives and there is a separation of the land. The above stated event takes place “to meet the Lord in the air.”
Why would I separate what YHWH has joined together since Mt. Sinai (Acts 7:38)? You do err greatly by doing so, blatantly contradicting Romans 7-11. If you want to understand Paul’s writings there, you need to read Gen. 48, Deut. 24, Jer. 3, and the entire book of Hosea… then re-read Romans 7-11. If you still can’t get it after that, there’s not much more I can do for you.
The term “rightly divide” has absolutely nothing to do with separating dispensations or Israel and the Church. The Church IS Israel. God only always saves a remnant. “Though the children of Israel be like the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.” The early Church was the JEWISH remnant. Gentiles later were grafted into and became part of ISRAEL. “You who are Gentiles by birth…at that time you were without Christ , being aliens from the Commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise…now IN CHRIST JESUS you who were at one time far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ, for He Himself is our peace, who has made the two (Jew and Gentile) ONE…having abolished in His flesh, the Law…to make ONE NEW MAN OUT OF THE TWO…For through Him we (Jew and Gentile) both have access by one Spirit unto the Father…AND you are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets (ALL JEWS!).
The Church is not some parenthesis in the midst of God’s dealings with Israel. The Law was the parenthesis, the temporary measure UNTIL THE COME OF THE SEED, JESUS CHRIST. The Church is God’s eternal purpose from the foundation of the world …it was His purpose to bring ALL things together IN CHRIST. He has done this through the cross. There will be NO removal of the Church and a return to the dispensation of Law. God is dealing with Israel NOW. “It is not as though God’s word has failed, for not all who are descended from Israel are Israel…it is the children of faith who are counted as seed.
The book of Hebrews tells us that the GOSPEL was preached to the Israelites in the desert, but they refused to hear Gpd’s voice. The book of Galatians tells us that the Gospel was preached also to Abraham. “And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles through faith, preached the Gospel beforehand to Abraham saying ‘In thee all nations shall be blessed (which is described in the book of Ephesians)…Now to Abraham and His Seed were the promises made. He says not, and to seeds, as of many , but as of one, and to thy Seed, which is CHRIST.'”
The Israelites were saved in exactly the same way as we are, by grace through faith. Jesus, at Passover, made the New Covenant with Israel, and we Gentiles have become partakers in the promises of Israel.
Read the 11th chapter of Hebrews and you will see that Israel was saved by faith. Read the next chapter and you will see that TOGETHER, Old Testament saints AND New Testament saints have “come to Mount Zion, unto the City of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (the same one mentions in the book of Revelation), and to an innumerable company of angles, to the general assembly and the Church of the Firstborn, and to the spirits of men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the New Covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks a better word that that of Abel….”
Abraham looked for a City which has FOUNDATIONS (twelve of them, all made of precious Living Stones), whose builder and maker is God. He and all those who lived by faith, “received not the promise, because God had something better for us, so that TOGETHER we (Old and New Testament saints) should be made perfect”
There is ONE resurrection/rapture which occurs immediately after the tribulation.
PreTribulation Rapturists don’t seem to understand that NO ONE can be saved unless they are in Christ. The so-called “Tribulation Saints” cannot be saved apart from the Church, the Body of Christ. Why? Because God sees only TWO people, Adam and Christ. All people are either in Adam, born of the flesh, or in Christ, born of the Spirit. PreTribulationists seem completely ignorant about what actually happened on the cross. In Jesus, Adam and the old creation died, and now thorough faith, all (both Old and New Testament saint alike) who were once dead, being buried with Christ in baptism, have been raised up with Him, seated in the heavenly realms. We are new creations in Christ.
PreTibbers like to use Enoch as a picture of the Church and Noah’s Ark passing through the flood as a picture of the “Tribulation Saints” passing through God’s wrath. This is a gross error. The Ark represents the Church. Peter says the flood represents baptism that saves us. Let me explain.
First, no where in the Bible does the term “Tribulation Saint” exist. Saints, whether they live now, or during the time of great tribulation, are those SANCTIFIED in Christ. As I have said, there are only TWO categories of people, those “in Adam (born of the flesh only, and dead in sin) and those “in Christ” (those born of God, alive in the spirit). There is no salvation outside of being in Christ, part of His body, the Church, and that includes all saints through all time. When God’s wrath was poured out on Jesus on the cross, the old creation in us died. When Jesus rose from dead, all those who are of the faith of Abraham were marked in Him, and raised up, seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians). The Flood of Noah represents baptism that saves us, according to Peter. The Ark is the Church. It has three levels. The lower level symbolizes the body, and corresponds to the Outer Court of the Temple. The middle level of the Ark symbolizes the soul, and corresponds to the Holy Place in the Temple. The upper level of the Ark symbolizes the spirit, and with its window opened to Heaven, corresponds to the Most Holy Place, where we enter into God’s presence. The dove sent out into the earth represents the Spirit, the same Spirit that descended upon Jesus at His baptism. The Ark is covered with “pitch,” a word related to covering, or atonement. The Flood story also corresponds to the Exodus of Israel. While Noah, his family, and clean and unclean animals (the same animal which Peter saw raised and lowered in a white sheet, that symbolize the nations), entered into the Ark, so the Israelites entered into their homes to partake of the Passover (the death of Christ). They entered into the Ark for seven days, just as the Israelites journeyed to the Sea of Reed for seven day, during Unleavened Bread. After seven days, Noah and all in the Ark (those “in Christ”) passed safely through the wrath of God, while those in Adam died. Even so, Israel was baptized into the Sea, passing through the wrath of God which destroyed Pharaoh and his armies. What this tells us is that ONLY those in the Ark, (which is the Temple, Christ’s Body, the Church) are saved from God’s wrath. If the so-called “Tribulation Saints” (a term not found in the Bible) are not the Body of Christ, they cannot survive God’s wrath. If the Ark is removed from the earth prior to the time of tribulation, they have no refuge from God’s wrath, and they will perish. In addition, God’s wrath is even now being revealed from heaven to those who suppress the truth by their disobedience. Revelation is merely the consummation, or finishing, or filling up to the full, of God’s wrath. God can pour out His wrath on sinners now, while we are still on earth. In fact, John, in his Gospel, states that the wrath of God “remains” on those who are not born of the Spirit through faith. We are safe from God’s wrath, not being being taken to Heaven in a PreTrib rapture, but by being in Christ.
I suggest reading your Bible instead of listening to PreTrib rapture teachers.
For those of us with a DEEP love for the Father, He is bringing us into truth so that we will be able to stand in these last days and be able to TEACH others. Thank you, Rob Skiba, for putting out the word.
Rob, I think your argument is incredibly thin. I do hope you have more than the word “last” as your evidence for dismissing the pretrib rapture? I would not want to assume ignorance on your part with some other scriptures, such as:
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.” – MATTHEW 24:42 -44
Then too:
“But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.” – Mark 13:32-37
There are also scriptures which speak of “last days” and then too “the Day of the Lord”. Hebrew is not a static language, words are flexible. How would you conceptualise a particular “last day?” what would that even look like? There are so many progressive events happening that the concept of a “last day” is impossible to qualify.
Russel, you say that we ignore Yeshua’s actual spoken words. I would suggest that exactly that logic as taking the p’shat (literal reading) of a text which is containing a Hebraism.
Again because I do not want to assume you are ignorant of Hebraisms and eschatological considerations in first century Hebrew culture Rob, I want to ask if you know the Hebraism “no one knows the day or the hour”. There is quite a bit of detail pertaining to these words so I would like to hear from you on that, maybe you dismiss it, I don’t know but I would want to hear your thoughts on it at least and how you could dismiss such overwhelming evidence as far as my research into this very concept has gone.
So if you don’t mind sharing your thoughts on that particular Hebraism and its related offshoots.
Thanks.
http://www.babylonrisingblog.com/RaptureRiddle2.html
Hi, I am disappointed, I tried real hard to summarise a response to make it simpler to engage. I could have pointed you to a vast array of articles I have written too. I asked a simple, direct question.
I have in the interest of ongoing debate, discussion and research, gone down the rabbit trail and am reading your article. It is in my simplified response creating a piece of writing which will be longer than your article, lol.
I will continue to write it though. If you don’t mind confirming the possibility of in the interest of fair play, actually post it so what has begun can continue. You of course have the power to allow or disallow comments and nobody would know that I have not “come to your senses” and recanted and bought your book. So I will continue to sift through the article you gave in response and will continue to build the reply but would appreciate your answer as to whether or not you will allow our discussion to progress.
If not it would be disappointing, I would still probably go ahead with it and blog myself on it. I will be happy to allow any comments you would want to give on that blog, which I would share with you of course. Then too I would have to let the those know who are now following this what has or has not happened which I am truly hoping will be in the interest of ongoing discussion. In fact I do a project called “Talk Truth” and would love to debate/discuss with you live on this issue, I will even allow you to choose a debate moderator, not using my own moderator in case you feel I may be favoured in some way.
Any way I trust this comment will be allowed, if so you would have more respect from me than I already have for some of your work on Nephilim, even if we will not agree on this issue.
hey Darin,
no offense, and i’m not even sure Rob is gonna let this comment thru let along my own idea as to the rapture that i wrote on this blog, but at the end of the day, when it comes to do with future prophecy i understand the need for acceptance by an audience if for no other reason than confirmation of you logic, however, this may not be the case. The lord makes straight our paths and it is by His spirit that we are delivered. Keep on keeping on brother! and God will reveal all to his beloved.
CHUCK MISSLER’S “Most Preposterous belief of Biblical Christianity” – (The Rapture).
The rapture is well documented biblically, and Missler used many scriptures in his presentation to establish that truth.
Chuck drawing on the O.T. Jewish wedding as a typology of Christ, the Bride and the Rapture is good. He argued the Bridegroom and Bride remain hidden in the Bridal chamber for 7 days and this represents the seven year tribulation period, which is a very good plausible argument, and holds greater weight than most other arguments on pretribulation rapture. For many scriptures quoted in support of the church being taken out of the world before the seven year period do not prove anything as far as timing.
However, for those claiming pretribulation because of the Doctrine of Imminence (and Chuck does), stating ‘it doesn’t need anything preceding for it to occur’ is shaky. He did state the ‘Doctrine of Imminence is the cornerstone of the pretribulational view’, and conceded “the fundamental Doctrine of Imminence must be forfeited with any view that requires the Great Tribulation, or any other precedent event to occur prior to the rapture”.
The Australian Oxford dictionary states imminence means: “is impending, soon to happen” which puts a different connotation on Misslers’ interpretation. His argument that expectancy proves pretribulation is a quantum leap as every believer from the early church through to present day are expectant because we “wait for our blessed hope, the appearing of the Glory of our Great God’ and Saviour Jesus Christ”, regardless of what belief we hold of when Jesus will come.
The Doctrine of Imminence argument falls down as there is at least one if not more preceding occurrences.
Firstly, the Bridegroom will come with a ‘SHOUT’ and the Bride will be alerted He is coming, so that WILL precede His coming. Who hears this shout is not actually specified in scripture but if the typology is to be embraced completely and without question then those on earth will need to “hear” the shout, thus undermining the Doctrine of Imminence.
Secondly, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 proves there is a preceding requirement for the rapture. For the dead in Christ will rise FIRST. After that we who are alive will be caught up with them. Missler emphasised using quantum physics as a basis how quick a twinkling of an eye may be, which really is only telling us the time it will take to be transformed at the time we are caught up in the air. For the sake of thoroughly examining this event we need to look at other occurrences of those who came out of their graves. Matthew 27:52-53 tells of those who rose out of their graves at the time the temple was torn in two, this would have been at least three and a half days according to the time elapsed between Jesus dying and His resurrection. As the Bible doesn’t tell us the length of time for those who will come out of the grave, neither does it tell us if Jesus will allow those who come out of the grave to walk on the earth like before it cannot be assumed they will not be seen by others before they are raptured. As it is common practise to stand on past biblical events to forecast possible future events we must out of necessity use the same yardstick when taking into account this possibility.
Thirdly, to support the Doctrine of Imminence (D.O.I.) which was first suggested by John Darby in the 1800’s, the founding father of the exclusive brethren, Missler quoted the following scriptures. However, these scriptures do not support the (D.O.I.).
Phillipians 3:20; “But we are citizens of the state which is in heaven, and from it also we earnestly and patiently await the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Titus 2:13 “Awaiting for the blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our God and Saviour Christ Jesus.”
Hebrews 9:28 “Even so it is that Christ…..will appear a second time, not to deal with sin, but to bring to full salvation those who are waiting for and expecting Him.”
1 Thessalonians 1:10 “And look forward to the coming of His son from heaven. Whom He raised from death-Jesus. Who personally rescues and delivers us out of and from the wrath which is coming and draws us to Himself.” (IF one believed the whole of the Great Tribulation was God’s wrath this is relevant to Missler D.O.I. BUT if the God’s wrath is only a part of the tribulation period this theory is irrelevant.)
1 Thessalonians 4:18 “Therefore comfort and encourage one another with these words.”
1 Thessalonians 5:6 “Accordingly then, let us not sleep, as the rest do, but let us keep wide awake and let us be sober.”
Revelation 22:20 “He who gives this warning and affirms and testifies to these things says Yes I am coming quickly Yes come, Lord Jesus.”
Problems with the typology of the O.T. Jewish Wedding establishing pretribulation rapture:
Typology of scripture is prophetic; it is stronger than a parable which is used for teaching; pointing to a lesson; or symbolic of a truth. However, everything in the parable may not necessarily be applied. Jesus drew from culture to identify with His audience so they could embrace the deeper spiritual lessons from their understanding of what was familiar. This is NOT to be disrespectful to Jesus, or His teachings but to establish we cannot expect every dot to have significance, and the importance of placing too much emphasis on a parable.
Therefore the typology of the O.T. must be weighed against scripture. When praying about the typology I asked the Lord if this meant pretribulation rapture because of the 7 days/years of the Bride and Groom in the bridal chamber. (I would have loved it to be so!) I was querying it for I believed it to have a lot of merit but despite looking I could not find anything else that lined up to support a pretribulation rapture.
This is the rhema word my Lord gave me. Colossians 2:3-4 & 16-17 Amp bible “In Him all the treasures of divine wisdom (comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God) and (all the riches of spiritual knowledge and enlightenment are stored up and hidden. I say this in order that no one may mislead and delude you by plausible and persuasive and attractive arguments and beguiling speech” v16-17 “Therefore let no one sit in judgement on you in matters of…to a feast day or a New Moon or a Sabbath. Such things are only a shadow of things to come, and they only have a symbolic value. But the reality (the substance, the solid fact of what is foreshadowed, the body of it) belongs to Christ.”
On further waiting on God my eyes were opened to Revelation 19:7-9 “Let us rejoice and exult and give Him the Glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come and His Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”- “for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.”
1. This implies the Bride is only NOW ready for the Bridegroom.
2. If the Bride is to be raptured pretribulation she would have NOT been in the bridal chamber for 7 years – possibly only between 1-6 years.
3. Even if Bride and Groom were ready at Rev 19 to go into the wedding banquet that would mean they hadn’t stayed in the bridal chamber on their own for the full designated time of 7 days/years.
Concerns of Missler’s teaching and presentation:
1. Chuck used emotive speech such as “violates”, “criticize” and the phrase “anyone who doesn’t believe in pretribulation is accepting God will beat the living daylights out of you, then we will get married.” When anyone let alone popular preachers resort to emotive speech; fail to examine and present in a logical dialogue both sides of an argument, they do a grave disservice to themselves, undermining their own argument by demonstrating a lack of confidence in their own stance.
2. Of great concern Missler did not mention or argue why opposing scriptures that didn’t align with his teaching should be disregarded, like 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction”. (Preceding events) What day? The answer is at the start of that chapter in verse 1 “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him….”
3. When speaking, time restraints make it difficult to cover a multitude of scripture but considering Missler quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:18 which added little support to the subject he was teaching on, it is a shame he did not include verses 13-18, and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 and emphasise verse 4 which says “But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief”. Why? Because we are children of the light and should be awake and waiting (with expectancy) even though He may tarry! Matthew 24:48
4. Misslers’ preoccupation with quantum physics and the instantaneous translation of the rapture to emphasise his point when examining 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 rather than addressing the issue of what trumpet sounds, especially when it speaks of ‘the last trumpet’ shows a flippancy and disregard to clarifying information. This is not conducive with an exhaustive study, nor an objective presentation.
5. Missler cursorily stated Tribulation comes from Satan and the Great Tribulation is the Wrath of God but he didn’t give any scriptures supporting this statement. Such a generalisation does not align with scripture, as after the 6th trumpet (Rev 9:13-21) it states “Man still did not repent!” This shows God travailing over mankind still! Certainly it isn’t wrath yet, for it demonstrates up until this point God wants mankind to accept Him as Lord and Saviour.
6. If anyone repents then according to Missler AND scripture they will not suffer God’s Wrath. Missler may like many ‘renowned teachers’ and believers who ‘stick to a theory’ no matter what find they need to keep creating new theology so their argument doesn’t disintegrate, but we should be honest and truthful when we see something contrary to our stance examining it for its merit.
7. Revelation 11:15-18 states after the 7th Trump (last trump) sounds it is declared in heaven “God reigns” AND God’s Wrath HAS COME!” Then the 7 bowls are poured out. (Rev 16) This is more in keeping with God’s Wrath but Missler ignored these passages. If he could discount them he should have done so to support his claims of the Doctrine of Imminence; and the pretribulation rapture. Failing to do so leaves craters in what he is ‘teaching’ and one noting Missler is looking through a prism that distorts when such important points are ignored.
8. Chuck states on Daniel 12:1 “The context here is clearly Israel. Jesus is quoting from the old testament.” But again fails to support his claim. However, we cannot be arbitrary in claiming anything quoted from the O.T. just refers to Israel! In Ephesians 2:11-21 Speaking about Israel and Gentile believers, v12 “remember….excluded from citizenship in Israel…” v15”His purpose was to create in Himself one new man out of two.“ – Scripture tells us we are fellow citizens with God’s people.”
9. Missler quoted these scriptures as proof the church will not go through the tribulation: 1 Thessalonians 5:9 “For God has not appointed us to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Romans 5:9 “Therefore, since we are now justified by Christ’s blood how much more we shall be saved by Him from the indignation and Wrath of God.” Psalm 27:5 “For in the day of trouble He will hide me in His shelter; in the secret place of His tent will He hide me; He will set me high upon a rock.” Revelation 3:10 “Because you have kept my word of patient endurance. I also will keep you safe from the HOUR of trial which is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell upon the earth.” Only IF you look through the lenses that God’s wrath IS the full 7 years would these scriptures be relevant. And to do so must be substantiated by relevant scripture, which it wasn’t.
10. Considering Revelation 11:15-18 declares “God’s Wrath HAS COME” meaning arrived, ready to be fulfilled, there is difficulty in arguing the full 7 years is God’s Wrath.
11. The Day of Wrath, and the Hour of trial do NOT specify number 7 (that is, a week or years) rather it implies a shorter period! Sodom and Gomorrah used by Chuck to support his argument does the opposite, as Sodom and Gomorrah is in total keeping with being taken out at the last moment (hour) before total destruction (day) from the Wrath of God.
12. Jeremiah 30:7 “Jacob’s trouble” and other scriptures of what Israel will have to endure are many BUT that does not prove the church will be raptured pretribulation, it only establishes Israel will suffer. Likewise Hosea 5::15. As previously pointed out in Ephesians 2 it is clear that separating the church and Israel is not an option as God ordained we are one which also totally rules out replacement theology if anyone is ignorantly hanging on to such a hideous theology. We are ALL God’s people (His chosen people and those who believe) so scripture is applicable to us all.
In concluding, Missler’s effort to establish the rapture will occur pretribulation using the foundation of the Doctrine of Imminence to support his teaching, with an airtight theory of when God’s wrath starts has failed according to his own stated yardstick.
Fantastic breakdown of Missler’s errors Georgie. I personally love the guy and enjoy his teachings very much, but had very similar thoughts on his flawed case(s) for the pre-Trib Rapture. In the end, it really holds no water.
Thanks for your comment Rob. I don’t have any personal problem with Chuck either but we must always go back and check what is taught by anyone to see if their stance aligns with the Word. I have sent my review to (Koinoina House Chuck’s ministry) and I hope for the sake of the bride they will take on board the failings of the teaching then rethink and teach only what can be substantiated in the Bible.
The phrase “no one knows the day or the hour” is an idiom that refers to the Feast of Trumpets. It is called this because it happens on a new moon, and no one knows exactly when the new moon will appear.
The rapture, according to PreTribbers, will occur on this day. The Second Coming will happen on the Day of Atonement, according to PreTribbers.
So, since Jesus fulfilled the spring feasts on the very day they were celebrated by the Israelites, He will fulfill the fall feasts on the very days they were celebrated.
In other words, the Second Coming happens exactly 10 days after the rapture, and the seven day Wedding Feast happens five days later.
Those are my thoughts.
Rob Skiba for the win!
Hi Rob,
I love you and your work but I myself disagree with you and remain a pre-tribber.
Some reasons:
In 2 Thes 2 v3 the word often translated rebellion is actually apostasia (or something similar), from all I’ve read this just means departure – and there is precendent for its use as a physical departure. Coupled with the departure of the restrainer and the fact that the word is in the definite article, it gives the impression that the day of the Lord will be preceded be a one-of-a-kind DEPARTURE.
In Revelation to the church in Thyatira there is also the threat of great tribulation unless they repent. Also to Philadelphia in 3v10 Christ says he will keep them from the hour of trial (note an hour refers to 7hrs while the day of the Lord – the Last day includes not only this hour but the millennium – a day with the Lord is a thousand years).
No one before Jesus would have expected Jesus to come twice, they expected one Messiah that both suffered and reigned. Not once a suffering messiah and then later a reigning one. The possibility of salvation through the church to gentiles was hidden. And so was the rapture of the church. But it is hinted at through scripture. Enoch is pre-flood. Daniel is pre-furnace. Esther is pre-haman.
I eagerly examine the scripture for proof and used to be a post-tribber. Maybe I’ll be a mid-tribber next who knows. However, demonising opposing theologies might make it more difficult for you to change your mind if you change your mind on an issue later. Certainly when it comes to the shape of the earth, I regret using flat-earther as a term for idiot – since I am now almost one myself!!
7hrs should read 7 years. And change your mind twice wasn’t a good sentence either, but you get the idea.
The word does not mean “departure” as in from the earth. It means departure from the faith. That’s terrible hermenuetics to suggest it means a Rapture event. Enoch was Raptured 700 years before the Flood in a time of peace AFTER the “clash of the Titan” civil war of the Nephilim. So, he is a terrible example for Pre-Trib Rapture. If anything, he serves as an example of a post trib.
I was a hardcore pre-Tribber for over 30 years. There’s not much anyone will ever be able to tell me that I didn’t already once believe and teach myself. But now I realize the gross errors in that belief and how totally unsupported it is Biblically.
actually apostasy refers to distance. i am Greek and i can verfiy this translation. In fact when i study scripture, i use Greek texts for in depth study.
This is a very harsh article. It is true but I think you need to read 1 cor 13 qgain
I don’t see is as harsh, I see it as love. Things are getting ugly in the world and it’s time for us to seek God and His word and let go of traditions and doctrines that don’t line up with His word. I fought this topic with all my being, I was furious when I heard it 17 years ago, then I settled down and read it for myself and my eyes were open. I had ears to hear, and eyes to see after I repented to God for holding on to doctrine more than His word.
Interesting, and God also took Noah through the judgement. He protected the people of Israel through the judgement that fell over Egypt. He was with Daniel in the lion’s den. He didn’t took him out of it. He was with Sadrach, Mesach and Abednego in the burning oven, He didn’t took them out of it.
Loved it, my friend! There is a great book that has been out for a while titled, “The Rapture Question Answered Plain and Simple” by Robert VanKampen. It’s a really good read.
Great article Rob. Keep it up.
Your work is such a blessing! GOD bless you more brother Rob.
Couldn’t be more clear! You always do a superb job of bringing it down to its simplest terms, Rob! Yah’s Word trumps all the exegetical gymnastics! 🙂
Yet you will still have ignorant people that want to interject their opinions, twisted as they may be. Trying to justify insertion of man-made theories that aren’t even provable in the pages of anyone’s Bible.
Thanks for your ongoing commitment to speak the truth.
To me it doesn’t matter if it’s pre mid or post tribulation. Live each as if that day the Lord will return
Very informative! Thanks for publishing your work. You have great insights that I frequently reference for my studies. It means a lot to me as I don’t have many people that take an interest to seek out why they believe what they believe. Keep up the good work.
Ditch the ESV. Its corrupt. Read KJV. This is why you have difference in doctrine. They do NOT read the same. Ill go onto your show and prove it. Im a KJV advocate and the reason Christians are confused on these matters is because the modern translations are not of God. They are not the preserved peefect Words of God.
The KJV would make NO difference in any of the above references. And I will never enter a debate with a KJV Only type, because it would be a colossal waste of time. Been there. Done that. Been around them my whole life. I know all of your arguments and suffice it to say, I will respectfully have to firmly disagree with any notion that is the “perfectly preserved Words of God.” It’s a great translation and the one I personally study from myself and have for 40 years, but it is far from perfect. I don’t expect you will accept that answer though. So again… agreeing to disagree brother. Shalom.
Hi Rob
We, my wife and myself, have been following you for quite some time.
I am very excited to see how you progress in different aspects.
The subject you addressed here are very profound and necessary to understand for understanding other bible truths. Especially when it comes to the events of the end time.
We can clearly see how the Fathers Spirit is leading you as you use His word to lead you, and not the traditions of man.
Be blessed Brother
Why is there no mention anywhere in the bible of a second resurrection? Does this not seem strange? Why would god forget to tell us about the second resurrection if the first part needed a mention? Do a bible search for the first resurrection its only mentioned once then do a bible search for second resurrection nothing!
Only “This is the First resurrection” which seems to me to have been added to the scripture to deliberately mislead. Rev 20:
…4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. (This is the first resurrection).6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the (first) resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Now read the same scripture with this part removed. …4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed..6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
There don’t seem to be any confusion to the scripture now the lie has been removed…..
A sentence is a self-contained unit of meaning.
Writing is constructed by putting sentences in sequence, one after another and, if a single sentence is read aloud, it should be understandable.
Meaning should flow from one sentence to the next, carrying the argument or point of view forward in a clear and concise manner. If you do not use correct grammar and punctuation, or your sentences are too long and complex, what you are trying to say will become unclear and the reader will be unable to follow the text because the flow of meaning is interrupted.
Here is another example of a lie that has been added into scripture.
Math 27:51-53
51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs (after His resurrection) they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
Now read the same scripture without the lie that’s been added at a later date.
And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
The first sentence does not flow its meaning is interrupted the added part only confuses the meaning of the scripture, whereas reading the same scripture with added part removed now makes perfect sense does it not?
As you like to claim you are a RE-Searcher – might I suggest you continue to research some of these claims before you start spouting nonsense about something being a false doctrine.
Here are a few items to do further research on 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Is not talking about “falling away” ,nor “rebellion” ….
It’s literal meaning is departing
Even the root word “apo” denotes movement away from the surface of an object.
The first seven English Bible translations of apostasia all most appropriately rendered the noun as either the “the departure” or “the departing”.
Wycliffe Bible (1384)
Tyndale Bible (1526)
Coverdale Bible (1539)
Cranmore Bible (1539)
Breeches Bible (1576)
Beza Bible (1583)
Geneva Bible (1608)
The Latin Vulgate – St. Jerome’s Latin Bible translation from the late fourth-century (prior to all English translations above) used discessio which translates as “departure”.
E. Schuyler English, one of our finest Greek scholars translates this word in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as “the departure”.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for it will not come unless the departure takes place first and the man of sin, who is destined for destruction, is revealed.
Another item to consider: The apostle Paul was a Pharisee – He knew his Torah (Old Testament) better than any of us today. Do you really believe he made a “slip of the pen” or had a “senior moment” by confusing “The Day of The Lord” — with the “The Day of Christ”. Since he used different terminology, to explain these different events – do you not think it is a bit presumptuous to try to combine them back together saying they are the same?
As Mary correctly points out (and you lambasted her for it) – The Church (Body of Christ) and Israel are different entities. True during this age of Grace there is neither Jew, nor Gentile. But as some point in the future – God will be removing the Body of Christ, and return to dealing with His People – Israel. Romans 11:25 For I want to let you know about this secret, brothers, so that you will not claim to be wiser than you are: Stubbornness has come to part of Israel until the full number of the gentiles comes to faith.
But the biggest item you ought to reconsider is – the mystery taught by Paul (ie. the Rapture) – should remain within his epistles. Going to the olivet discourse (where it obviously teaches the 2nd coming of Jesus when He sets foot on Earth again) – and trying to make it apply to the rapture is a bit disingenuous; the two really have nothing in common…. Since it (rapture) was not taught until it was revealed to Paul.
Been there. Done that. DID Re-search it and found the claims you are making to be utterly ridiculous for more reasons than I have time to address here. But the alleged “departure” has NOTHING to do with leaving the earth. It has to do with leaving the TRUE FAITH taught from Scripture. SMH The alternative is self-contradicting. Instead of…
2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and by our GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM (i.e. the Rapture),
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for THAT DAY (what day? Oh yeah, the “gathering together” Rapture day) shall not come, except there come a “FALLING AWAY” (from the faith) first…
You end up with… “the ‘Rapture departure’ shall not come until the ‘Rapture departure’ comes first…” How does that make any sense to any sane human? Look up the word for crying out loud. Oh never mind. I’ll do it for you…
apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee’-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from aphistémi
Definition
defection, revolt
Used only 2 times in Scripture. Once in the 2 Thess. 2 verse and again in
Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to FORSAKE Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Is it saying that they flew away into the sky, “departing” from Moses?? No. Even if the word “depart” were used here, it’s still talking in the context of forsaking the teaching of Moses – as in an apostasy.
And no… no “slip of the pen.” Jesus Christ is Lord is He not? The “Day of the Lord” is when Christ comes back, is it not? It’s His big day! Is this new to you? I know you’ve seen that somewhere before. Perhaps you’ve at least seen the bumper stickers. Come on. They’re one and the same. It’s not rocket-science.
And NO! Stephen firmly disagrees with you and Mary and other Dispensational Pre-Trib Rapturists. Read Acts 7:38. Then take a deep breath and read Gen. 48 (to understand who the Gentiles are), Deut. 24, Jeremiah 3, the entire book of Hosea (again to understand who the Gentiles are) and finally read Romans 7-11 verrrryyyyy slowwwly… and you will see that even Paul disagrees with you.
You are seriously confused because you are looking through the lenses of Darby, Scofield, Larkin and company. Toss the glasses. You will see quite clearly if you do. Or don’t and go ahead and label me a “heretic” or worse (it’s what your kind do).
As a result of Israel’s failure, God in his mercy, brought salvation to Gentiles. According to God’s program for Israel, which God had revealed through the prophets, Gentiles would be blessed through the success of Israel (Isaiah 42.1; Zechariah 8.20-23). According to the prophetic plan, the Messiah would be rejected, the tribulation would come, and the Lord would set up his kingdom on earth, ruling from Jerusalem (Psalm 2. 1-6). God had never revealed anything through the prophets about the Church, the Body of Christ. Nor did Jesus reveal anything about the Church during his earthly ministry. The body of Christ was a “secret” God held in his own mind until Paul. Instead of bringing in the prophesied tribulation, the “wrath of God,” (Jeremiah 30.7), God saved the Apostle Paul to become the “apostle of the Gentiles” (Romans 11.13) and proclaim “the gospel of the grace of God” (Acts 20.24). The prophesied earthly kingdom (Zechariah 14.9) was delayed. God revealed to Paul a new plan in which He is building his Church, the Body of Christ. Thus, while Israel failed, God’s purpose to bless the Gentiles was not thwarted. Mercy and grace came to Gentiles, not through Israel’s success, but through Israel’s failure. Furthermore, Paul stated that if such good came from Israel’s failure, think of the glory that will come when they succeed, i.e., “how much more will their fulfillment be (v. 12)!” Thus, Paul wrote in verse 15, “for if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?”
Paul now began his great teaching of the olive tree: (Romans 11:16-32)
Paul used the olive tree to represent God’s blessing. The holy root began with God’s dealings with Abraham. The Jews were the natural branches that grew from this root. Because of unbelief God broke them off. After this, God grafted believing Gentiles (primarily) onto the olive tree as “wild” branches.
Paul then went on to declare that the “natural” branches (Israel) would be regrafted into the olive tree. Thus in verses 23-24:
Paul’s statement, “if they do not continue in their unbelief” is a Greek 3rd class condition. The fulfillment is uncertain but likely. However, the Old Testament Scriptures, as well as what Paul stated in the passage, indicates the outcome is certain: the natural branches will be grafted in again.
Paul then provided new information. The Old Testament had not revealed it, Jesus did not reveal it in His earthly ministry, and Peter and the other apostles knew nothing of it. Paul wrote in vv. 25-26a:
Paul revealed a “secret” (τὸ μυστήριον τοῦτο). A μυστήριον is not something “strange” or “mysterious” but something hidden, a secret. The secret was that a “partial hardening has happened to Israel.” The hardening was partial, for some Jews did believe in Christ. The hardening was also temporary, as revealed by the word “until” (ἄχρι). Paul disclosed the rest of the secret when he revealed when the hardening would end. The answer was when the “fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” The “fullness of the Gentiles” was Paul’s phrase for completion of the Body of Christ, the Church (1 Corinthians 15.23, 52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4.14-17; 2 Thessalonians 1.1-6). When the Body of Christ is complete, God will remove it and deal again with his covenant people, Israel. God will return to the timeline he had revealed to David (Psalm 2.1-6) and the other prophets. God had delayed His wrath following the rejection of his Son.
Do you even read your Bible?
The Church was God’s plan from the foundation of the world. In the Garden God promised that a Seed would come and that He would crush the serpent’s head. God promised Abraham that that Seed would come from His loins.
There is ONE Gospel, called by various names. That Gospel was preached to Abraham, as well as to the children of Israel in the wilderness.
“Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Gospel beforehand, saying ‘In thy Seed all nations will be blessed.” Galatians 3:8
“Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?…Therefore, since the promise of entering His rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you fall short of it. Fro we also have had the Gospel preached to us, JUST AS THEY DID; but the message did not profit them because they did not share the FAITH of those who obeyed.” Hebrews 3;16; 4:1-2
That Seed is Jesus Christ and that Gospel is the Gospel of Grace, righteousness by faith. The book of Ephesians tells us how we are blessed. They are heavenly blessings, not earthly. Even Abraham knew this.
“By faith Abraham…sojourned in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country…for he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose builder and maker is God…
“All these people (the Old Testament saints) were still living BY FAITH when they died. They did not receive what was promised; they only saw them from afar and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking about the country from whence they came out, they might have had an opportunity to have returned. But now they desired a better country, that is A HEAVENLY ONE; therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared for them a CITY.” Hebrews 11
Even Moses chose to “suffer affliction with the people of God” rather than “enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season, esteeming the reproach of Christ as greater riches that the treasures in Egypt…”
“All of these (Old Testament saints) obtained a good sport through FAITH, received not the promise, God having provided something better for us, so that they without us would not be made perfect.”
So what is that heavenly city that Abraham looked forward to?
“But you have come to Mount Zion, and unto the City of the Living god, the Heavenly Jerusalem (the one that comes down out of Heaven from God in the book of Revelation), and to an innumerable company of angels (all the angels mentioned in the book of Revelation, to the General Assembly and Church of the Firstborn which are written in Heaven (all of the saints of God from the Old and New Testament), and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect (all who have been saved by faith, Old as well as New Testament saints…remember, “all these (Old Testament Saints) received a good report through faith, but received not the promises, God having provided some better things for us, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT WITHOUT US.”
That perfection comes at the one and only resurrection/rapture at the end of the age.
As for the old Testament saints knowing nothing about the Gospel of Grace and salvation by faith, Peter disagrees with you.
“Concerning this salvation, the prophets, WHO SPOKE OF THE GRACE THAT WAS TO COME, SEARCHED INTENTLY and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow…” I Peter 1
The Church is NOT a parenthesis in the midst of God’s dealing with Israel. The Church is the culmination of the ages (I Corinthians 13:10).
“…and He made know that mystery of His will according to the good pleasure which He purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment – to bring unity to all things in heaven and earth under Christ.” Ephesians 1
God has NOT set aside Israel during the so-called Church Age. God never intended to save all Israel.
“Though the descendants of Israel be like the sand of the seashore, only a remnant will be saved.”
Paul clearly states that the remnant of Israel chosen by grace was being saved in his day. The salvation of “all Israel” is not a future event. It has been happening for nearly 2000 years, and will continue until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in.
Romans 11 does NOT say, “…and THEN all Israel will be saved, when the Redeemer comes out of Zion….” It says, “And in this manner all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Redeemer will come out of Zion and turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is My Covenant with them, when I take away their sins.”
The Redeemer HAS come out of Zion, and is presently turning godlessness away from a remnant in Jacob. Their sins were taken away at the cross, just as our were. The New Covenant has been made.
And yes, God delayed His wrath following the rejection of His Son…for forty years.
“Woe unto you scribes and pharisees…fill up the measure of your fathers… that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth…verily I say unto you, ALL THESE THINGS SHALL COME UPON THIS GENERATION…behold, your HOUSE IS LEFT TO YOU DESOLATE.” Matthew 23
Daniel 9 describes this desolation.
“The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, and the end shall be as a flood, and unto the end of the war DESOLATIONS are decreed…and for the overspreading of abominations, he shall make it DESOLATE, even until the consummation…”
And Jesus warned His disciples about it.
“Therefore, when you see the abomination that causes DESOLATION…”
So, no, there will be no return to deal with Israel. The natural branches are being grafted in now, and Gentiles are being grafted in along side them. There is no separate Gospel for Israel. The Gospel and the Kingdom, the Gospel of God, the Gospel of grace are and the same Gospel. Anyone who preaches another gospel, whether man, or angel, is cursed.
Interestingly, there is an angel preaching the eternal Gospel during the events recorded in the book of Revelation. Now, PreTribbers insist that the Gospel of Grace will not be preached during this time, for that Gospel is only for the Church, so for them, it must be a different Gospel, the Gospel of the Kingdom. It appears that Paul is talking directly to PreTribbers when he says that even an angel who preaches any other Gospel than what he preaches, is cursed. That eternal Gospel, preached during the tribulation MUST be the Gospel that Paul preached to the Church. And it must be the same Gospel that Jesus preached to the Jews. Are PreTribbers, then, under a curse for preaching salvation by any other means than Jesus death and resurrection? Hmmm.
God will not remove His Church in order for Israel to be saved. Israel will be saved and grafted into the Olive Tree…the same Tree Gentile are grafted into…and THEN ALL ISRAEL, both JEW AND GENTILE, from both OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS, will be resurrected raptured as God pours out His wrath on the earth.
The time for great tribulation is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God is reserved for unbelievers, not for God’s elect. The tribulation is the final testing and purifying of the Bride, in order to make her ready.
The problem with the PreTribber rapture is not eschatological, but rather soteriological. It is based on the false doctrine of Dispensationalism. The Bible teaches two dispensations, one of Law and one of grace. The first dispensation is a type and shadow of the second. The earthly teaches us about the heavenly. “First the natural, then the spiritual..”
There will be no return to the natural. It is a shadow. Those things that are natural are temporary and are passing away. The spiritual is eternal.
During the tribulation Israel will repent and return to God (Matthew 23.39). The result will be that “all Israel will be saved”. What did Paul mean by this? It meant that every Jew who survived the Tribulation would believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Peter had declared to the nation this requirement in his first sermon after the ascension of Christ and the advent of the Holy Spirit. His message to “all the house of Israel” (Acts 2.36) was that every Jew had to repent (Acts 2.38, cf. 3.22-23). As Luke recorded in the book of Acts, that generation of Jews refused. However, a future generation of Jews will succeed. This fact is declared by the prophets (Isaiah 66.7-9, 25.9; Zechariah 12.10, 13.6).
Thus, Paul declared, quoting Isaiah 59.20-21, Jeremiah 31.33-34, Isaiah 27.9:
just as it is written, “THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB.” “THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS.”
What was Paul’s conclusion? He wrote in vv 28-29:
28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
Just as an aside — when you state (it’s what your kind do)….
and try to lump me in with people like Darby, Scofield, Larkin and company….
Actually my research comes from other sources….
C.E.B. Cranfield, The Epistle to the Romans, T & T Clark, 1979, vol. 2, p. 448. Cranfield wrote, “It is only where the Church persists in refusing to learn this message, where it secretly–perhaps quite unconsciously!–believes that its own existence is based on human achievement, and so fails to understand God’s mercy to itself, that it is unable to believe in God’s mercy for still unbelieving Israel, and so entertains the ugly and unscriptural notion that God has cast off His people Israel and simply replaced it by the Christian Church. These three chapters emphatically forbid us to speak of the Church as having once and for all taken the place of the Jewish people. He then added in a footnote: But the assumption that the Church has simply replaced Israel as the people of God is extremely common. Thus Barrett, for example, writes: ‘This fact reminds us that behind Paul’s discussion there lies the historical background formed by the ministry of Jesus; his rejection and crucifixion by Israel [but such passages as 1 Th 2.15 and Acts 2.23; 4.10 certainly do not give those of us who are Gentiles any right to ignore the decisive part played by the Romans in the crucifixion of Jesus], which thereby disavowed its own place in God’s plan; and the election of a new Israel in Christ to take the place of the old’ (p. 191f). And I confess with shame to having also myself used in print on more than one occasion this language of the replacement of Israel by the Church.”
It doesn’t matter whether your “research” comes from Darby, Scofield, or Cranfield. It results in the same thing… human reasoning.
God has NOT cast off His people, Israel. The Church = THE REMNANT OF ISRAEL CHOSEN BY GRACE + INGRAFTED GENTILES. We are made one in Christ.
BUT…
There is NO SALVATION for Israel except that they be grafted back into their own Tree, the SAME TREE into which Gentiles are ingrafted…that is, into CHRIST. There is ONE TREE, made of Jew and Gentile, whose root is the covenants of promise made to Israel.
There will be no return to deal with Israel after a supposed departure of the Church. There is NO salvation outside of being IN CHRIST BY FAITH. Being IN CHRIST means you are a part of His Body, the Church, and the Bride (who is “one flesh” with her Husband…bone of His bone, flesh of His flesh.) During the tribulation, ass is now, there is no salvation outside of being in Christ. He is the Ark who protects ALL from the wrath of God. He is the Temple, with the Jewish apostles and prophets as the foundation, with Jew and Gentile built up into a habitation for God in the Spirit (Ephesians). The writer of Hebrews tells us that NOW is the day of salvation, and if they here His voice, they are not to harden their hearts as they did in the Wilderness. The salvation of Israel is not a future event. It is now.
“For there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich unto all the call upon Him. For whosoever shall call upon the Lord shall be saved.
“How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed, and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard, and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the Gospel of Peace, and bring glad tiding of good things!
“But they have not all obeyed the Gospel, for Isaiah says, Lord, who has believed our report? So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
“But I say, Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
“But I say, Did Israel not know? First Moses says, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are not a people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
“But Isaiah is very bold, and says, I was found of them that sought Me not, and was made manifest unto them the asked not after Me. But to Israel he says, “All day long I have held my hands out unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
“I say then, has God cast away His people? God forbid, for I am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people WHICH HE FOREKNEW…
“Even so, AT THIS PRESENT TIME also there is a remnant according to the election of grace…
“What then? Israel has not obtained that which they seeketh after, but the election has obtained it, and the rest were blinded.”
“Isaiah also cries concerning Israel, Though the number of he children of Israel be as the sands of the seashore, only a REMNANT will be saved, for He will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness…”
In other words, ALL ISRAEL refers ONLY to the elect remnant of Israelites chosen by grace, because “they are NOT ALL ISRAEL who are descended from Israel, neither because they are the seed of Abraham are they the children of God…”
“That is , they which are the children of flesh, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN, but the children of PROMISE are counted for seed… ”
“Even as Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness, know therefore that they which are of FAITH, the same are the children of Abraham. And Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles through faith, preached the Gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
“So then they which are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham…”
“For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to every one who believes…”
“And if you be Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the PROMISE.”
It is clear from Scripture that ALL ISRAEL will ONLY be saved but grace through faith in Christ, making them part of the Church, the Church cannot be resurrected/raptured before ALL ISRAEL is saved.
Remember, apart from us the Old Testament saints will not be made perfect.
While this whole issue is truly up for debate among scholars and believers, I believe that it was Brother Rob himself that stated (although I could be wrong) that prophecy is given, not so much for us to interpret the future, but to recognize that God’s plan is unfolding as he promised and we should glorify him for it, I would like to present another interpretation of this issue that I believe our Good Lord has put on my heart. I also know that Rob doesn’t usually read/respond to long correspondence, citing time constraints, and while this is quite understandable, I also think that in regards to understanding/interpretation of Scriptures, a Berean mindset should be applied before any judgment is made on the message or the messenger especially since THIS particular subject is so high profile among many believers. In fact, it is shocking how the already established mindset in the Christian believers leads to an almost arrogance in their salvation leading many to falsely believe that “I don’t need to worry about scriptural understanding or current events because I’m gonna be raptured before the tribulation etc. etc”. Also, I have shared this view, which I believe with all my heart the Lord revealed to me, with elders and pastors in different denominations and I have yet to see any scripture to rebuke the following. It is presented here for scrutinizing and discussion.
The history of interpreting the book of Revelation has been brought forward more since the protestant reformation was standardized by the “more Northern Europeans” than in the “traditional” denominational religions. The truth is that only in the last 200 or so years has the “Christian” world really bothered to attempt to unravel latter day prophecy which has produced the pre, mid, post trib rapture hypothesis which standardized this teaching in the Western world which slowely made its way East. These hypotheses however, are quick to dismiss 1700+ years of history citing that the Bible is in fact silent when it comes to prophecy interpretation of the latter/last days. This however does NOT in fact adhere to the Jewish understanding of prophecy which regards it as pattern, not foreknowledge, and the book of Revelation, does indeed follow the pattern presented in the book of Daniel and also in the Enoch story.
Before reading further I advise to at least understand where the modern interpretations of the Tribulation/Rapture come from and when they were popularized. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture for a quick read. I believe that it is important not just to know why you believe something but also the true origin of a teaching.
In light of this understanding and hoping that in this particular forum of alternative spiritual thinking, another more logical interpretation of scripture can be deduced which follows in fact, the pattern of Scripture. In the books of Daniel and even in the Enoch story, history is laid out before it happens, and taking at least the Daniel account, history is presented with careful detail given in regards to the future events as they will unfold periodically, and NOT in fact that God’s plan will pause for 400 or so years and continue when the Messiah comes. The first bad teaching is that of the Silent years between the testaments because God is anything but silent about them.
For the sake of time, I will not lay down a parallel about Daniel and John how they are both beloved and how they are given intimate knowledge of future events because this is a huge study in and of itself.
If Revelation is, among other things, a linear foreshadowing of future events, would it not be important then, instead of first interpreting “future prophecy” to first try to accurately pinpoint where in the timeline we are currently? Are we really in the “last days”?
I would refer you to Chuck Missler’s study on the book of Revelation and in particular to letters of Christ. Dr. Missler correctly recognizes that the 7 letters to the 7 churches are also in fact a timeline of the history of the church starting from the Apostolic church of Ephesus and ending with lukewarm church of Laodicea. The seven churches therefore symbolize 7 “eras” of the church.
1. The Church of Ephesus era: the apostolic church
2. The Church of Smyrna era: the persecuted to death church
3. The Church of Pergamos era : the married church
4. The era of the Church of Thyatira : the Medieval church
5. The Church of Sardis era : the Denominational church
6. The era of the Church of Philadelphia: the missionary church
7. The era of the Church of Laodicea : the apostate/democratic church.
And this is about right. And although the exact date of these events can be brought into question, these eras do coincide with major events that happened to the church.
(On a side note, Laodicea literally translates to governed by the people with a reference to democracy. I think that it is highly likely that we are living in the final era, the era of a “democratically oriented” church.)
After this timeline is thus established, careful consideration needs to be taken in regards to the text. There is certainly no disputing the heptadic structure of each letter, but there is a discrepancy that nobody has really addressed so far. The verse “he that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches” is placed before the promise to the overcomer in the first 3 letters but after the promise to the overcomer in the latter 4. Why? It certainly is not a coincidence!
Can we assume just for moment then that this eerie warning given by the King Himself therefore is perhaps a foreshadowing of a future event? How the first 3 churches should take care to not be deceived before they will “overcome” while the last 4 have “overcome” even though they can STILL be deceived? Is there a certain “disturbance” in the timeline that we should look at more carefully? I believe so.
It is my belief that the rapture of the church happened between the 3rd and 4th eras of the church. And how when the church was raptured God left the earth and in his place, we received our Bibles, the completed written word of God. It is because God has left the Earth that we are now living in the so called “Great Tribulation” and our only connection to God now is through His Spirit.
This hypothesis is certainly open for debate, as I am truly seeking understanding as many here. I have already written too much so If there is interest I would be delighted to converse further on the matter. I would also be honored if brothers’ Rob and Doug chime in their 2cents.
I too, as a pastor, am very much understanding that the church will be here until the final trumpet of 1st Corinthians 15:52 sounds. 1st Thessalonians 4:16 says the Lord comes with the sound of a trumpet, while 1st Corinthians defines the trumpet as the last one.
Additionally, I find most people miss the fact that the chronological time line of the Bible ends in Revelation 11:15. That said, . . . where did the prophets come from that had a 3 1/2 year ministry opposing the beast?
I just believe the Bible, . . . as it was written, . . . not trying to find some hidden meaning behind some Greek word, . . . some Hebrew idiom, . . . because Jesus ministered to the common and simple man. Common and simple interpretation leaves no room for an earlier rapture.
The
http://www.texemarrs.com/092012/holy_serpent_of_jews.htm
After watching your sermons and relating the Genesis 6 experiment to Matthew 24, I was reading the scriptures below and read that this is used as an explanation of the rapture.
I pondered this explanation and after a while, I considered the alien abductions.
I thought, is Yeshua, alluding to alien abductions, Fallen Angels activity, as part of the great deception? Just wondering if others have considered this as well?
Matthew 24:
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left
I must admit I was an Ancient Aliens viewer as I have seen strange phenomenon in the outback of Australia and on the seas near my home islands in Torres Strait Islands, Northern Australia.
But after seeing your sermons on Babylon Rising and The Nephilim, I looked at Chuck Misslers’ sermons and a YouTube clip “the Omega Conspiracy” with I.D.E Thomas; it really opened my eyes to the great deceptions that are happening today.
Thank you for your insightful explanations. And may God Bless you, in your ministry.
Thanks Charlie! Glad our work has been a blessing to you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kKa5WJktfg
Go here for the truth.
2 Timothy 2:14
Hypocrites
Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
[Great blog, Rob. Saw this hot item just now on the net!]
PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY
by Dave MacPherson
When I began my research in 1970 into the exact beginnings of the pretribulation rapture belief still held by many evangelicals, I assumed that the rapture debate involved only “godly scholars with honest differences.” The paper you are now reading reveals why I gave up that assumption many years ago. With this introduction-of-sorts in mind, let’s take a long look at the pervasive dishonesty throughout the history of the 186-year-old pretrib rapture theory:
Mid-1820’s – German scholar Max Weremchuk’s work “John Nelson Darby” (1992) included what Benjamin Newton revealed about John Darby in the mid-1820’s during his pre-Brethren days as an Anglican clergyman:
“J. N. Darby was a very subtle man. He had been a lawyer, or at least educated for the law. Once he wanted his Archbishop to pursue a certain course, when he (J.N.D.) was a curate in his diocese. He wrote a letter, therefore, saying he had been educated for the law, knew what the legal course would properly be; and then having written that clearly, he mystified the remainder of the letter both in word and in handwriting, and ended up by saying: You see, my Lord, such being the legal aspect of the case it would unquestionably be the best course for you to pursue, etc. And the Archbishop couldn’t make out the legal part, but rested on Darby’s word and did as he advised. Darby afterwards laughed over it, and indeed he showed a copy of the letter to Tregelles. This is not mentioned in the Archbishop’s biography, but in it is the fact that he spoke of Darby as ‘the most subtle man in my diocese.'”
This reminds me of an 1834 letter by Darby which spoke of the “Lord’s coming.” Darby added, concerning this coming, that “the thoughts are new” and that during any teaching of it “it would not be well to have it so clear.” Darby’s deviousness here was his usage of a centuries-old term – “Lord’s coming” – to cover up his desire to sneak the new pretrib idea into existing posttrib groups in very low-profile ways!
1830 – In the spring of 1830 a young Scottish lassie, Margaret Macdonald, came up with the novel notion of a catching up [rapture] of Spirit-filled “church” members before Antichrist’s “trial” [tribulation] of non-Spirit-filled “church” members – the first instance I’ve found of clear “pretrib” teaching (which was part of a partial rapture scheme). In Sep. 1830 “The Morning Watch” (a journal produced by London preacher Edward Irving and his “Irvingite” followers, some of whom had visited Margaret a few weeks earlier) began repeating her original thoughts and even her wording but gave her no credit – the first plagiarism I’ve found in pretrib history. Darby was still defending posttrib in Dec. 1830.
Pretrib promoters have long known the significance of her main point: a rapture of “church” members BEFORE the revealing of Antichrist. Which is why John Walvoord quoted nothing in her revelation, why Thomas Ice habitually skips over her main point but quotes lines BEFORE and AFTER it, and why Hal Lindsey muddies up her main point so he can (falsely) assert that she was NOT a pretribber! (Google “X-Raying Margaret” for info about her, also “Edward Irving is Unnerving.”)
NOTE: The development of the 1800’s is thoroughly documented in my book “The Rapture Plot.” You’ll learn that Darby wasn’t original on any chief aspect of dispensationalism (but plagiarized the Irvingites); that pretrib was initially based on only OT and NT symbols and not clear Scripture; that the symbols included the Jewish feasts, the two witnesses, and the man child – symbols adopted by Darby during most of his career; that Darby’s later reminiscences exaggerated his earliest pretrib development, and that today’s defenders such as Thomas Ice have further overstated what Darby overstated; that Irvingism didn’t need later reminiscences to “clarify” its own early pretrib development; that ancient hymns and even the writings of the Reformers were subtly revised to make it appear they had taught pretrib; that by the 1870s the 3.5-year tribulation was finally seven years long; and that after Darby’s death a clever revisionist quietly made many changes in early Irvingite and Brethren documents in order to steal credit for pretrib away from the Irvingites (and their female inspiration!) and give it dishonestly to Darby! (Before continuing, Google the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site and read “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” – a sample of the current exciting internetism!)
1920 – Charles Trumbull’s book “The Life Story of C. I. Scofield” told only the dispensationally-correct side of his life. Two recent books, Joseph Canfield’s “The Incredible Scofield and His Book” (1988) and David Lutzweiler’s “The Praise of Folly: The Enigmatic Life & Theology of C. I. Scofield (2009), reveal the other side including his being jailed as a forger, dishonestly giving himself a non-conferred “D.D.” etc. etc.!
1967 – Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon’s “The Origins of the Brethren” quoted Darby associate Lord Congleton who was “disgusted with…the falseness” of Darby’s accounts of things. Rowdon also quoted historian William Neatby who said that others felt that “the time-honoured method of single combat” was as good as anything “to elicit the truth” from Darby. (In other words, knock it out of him!)
1972 – Tim LaHaye’s “The Beginning of the End” (1972) plagiarized Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).
1976 – Charles Ryrie”s “The Living End” (1976) plagiarized Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970) and “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).
1976 – After John Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976) brutally twisted Robert Gundry’s “The Church and the Tribulation” (1973), Gundry composed and circulated a 35-page open letter to Walvoord which repeatedly charged the Dallas Seminary president with “misrepresentation,” “misrepresentations” (and variations)!
1981 – “The Fundamentalist Phenomenon” (1981) by Jerry Falwell, Ed Dobson, and Ed Hindson heavily plagiarized George Dollar’s 1973 book “A History of Fundamentalism in America.”
1984 – After a prof at Southeastern College of the Assemblies of God in Florida told me that the No. 2 man at the AG world headquarters in Missouri – Joseph Flower – had the label of posttrib, my wife and I had two hour-long chats with him. He verified what I had been told. But we were dumbstruck when he told us that although AG ministers are required to promote pretrib, privately they can believe any other rapture view! Flower said that his father, an AG co-founder, was also posttrib. We also learned while in Springfield that when the AG’s were organized in 1914, the initial group was divided between posttribs and pretribs – but that the pretribs shouted louder which resulted in that denomination officially adopting pretrib! (For details on this and other pretrib double-mindedness, Google “Pretrib Hypocrisy.”)
1989 – Since 1989 Thomas Ice has referred to the “Mac-theory” (his reference to my research), giving the impression there’s no solid evidence that Macdonald was the real pretrib originator. But Ice carefully conceals the fact that no eminent church historian of the 1800’s – whether Plymouth Brethren or Irvingite – credited Darby with pretrib. Instead, they uniformly credited leading Irvingite sources, all of which upheld the Scottish lassie’s contribution! Moreover, I’m hardly the only modern scholar seeing significance in Irvingism’s territory. Others in recent years who have noted it, but who haven’t mined it as deeply as I have, include Fuller, Ladd, Bass, Rowdon, Sandeen, and Gundry.
1989 – Greg Bahnsen and Kenneth Gentry produced evidence in 1989 that Lindsey’s book “The Road to Holocaust” (1989) plagiarized “Dominion Theology” (1988) by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice.
1990 – David Jeremiah’s and C. C. Carlson’s “Escape the Coming Night” (1990) massively plagiarized Lindsey’s 1973 book “There’s A New World Coming.” (For more info, type in “Thieves’ Marketing” on MSN or Google.)
1991 – Paul Lee Tan’s “A Pictorial Guide to Bible Prophecy” (1991) plagiarized large amounts of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).
1991 – Militant Darby defender R. A. Huebner claimed in 1991 to have found new evidence that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827 – three years before Macdonald. Halfway through his book Huebner suddenly admitted that his evidence could refer to something completely un-rapturesque. Even though Thomas Ice admitted to me that he knew that Huebner had “blown” his so-called evidence, prevaricator Ice continues to tell the world that Huebner has “positive evidence” that Darby was pretrib in 1827! Ice also conceals the fact that Darby, in his own 1827 paper, was looking for only “the restitution of all things” and “the times of refreshing” (Acts 3:19,21) – which Scofield doesn’t see fulfilled until AFTER a future tribulation! For more on Ice, Google “Thomas Ice (Bloopers).”
1992 – Tim LaHaye’s “No Fear of the Storm” (1992) plagiarized Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976).
1992 – This was when the Los Angeles Times revealed that “The Magog Factor” (1992) by Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler was a monstrous plagiarism of Prof. Edwin Yamauchi’s scholarly 1982 work “Foes from the Northern Frontier.” Four months after this exposure, Lindsey and Missler stated they had stopped publishing and promoting their book. But in 1996 Dr. Yamauchi learned that the dishonest duo had issued a 1995 book called “The Magog Invasion” which still had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (If Lindsey and Missler ever need hernia operations, I predict that the doctors will tell them not to lift anything for a long time!)
1994 – In 1996 it was revealed that Lindsey’s “Planet Earth – 2000 A.D. (1994) had an embarrassing amount of plagiarism of a Texe Marrs book titled “Mystery Mark of the New Age” (1988).
1995 – My book “The Rapture Plot” reveals the dishonesty in Darby’s reprinted works. It’s often hard to tell who wrote the footnotes and when. It’s easy to believe that the notes, and also unsigned phrases inside brackets within the text, were a devious attempt by someone (Darby? his editor?) to portray a Darby far more developed in pretrib thinking than he actually had been at the time. I found that some of the “additives” had been taken from Darby’s much later works, when he was more developed, and placed next to or inside his earliest works! One footnote by Darby’s editor, attached to Darby’s 1830 paper, actually stated that “it was not worth while either suppressing or changing” anything in this work! If his editor wasn’t open to such dishonesty, how can we explain such a statement?
Post-1995 – Thomas Ice’s article “Inventor of False Pre-Trib Rapture History” states that my book “The Rapture Plot” is “only one of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse….” And David Reagan in his article “The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture” repeats Ice’s falsehood by claiming that I have republished my first book “over the years under several different titles.”
Although my book repeats a bit of the Macdonald origin of pretrib (for new readers), all of my books are packed with new material not found in my other works. For some clarification, “The Incredible Cover-Up” has photos of pertinent places in Ireland, Scotland, and England not found in my later books plus several chapters dealing with theological arguments; “The Great Rapture Hoax” quotes scholars throughout the Church Age, covers Scofield’s hidden side, a section on Powerscourt, the 1980 election, the Jupiter Effect, Gundry’s change, and more theological arguments; “The Rapture Plot” reveals for the first time the Great Evangelical Revisionism/Robbery and includes appendices on miscopying, plagiarism, etc.; and “The Three R’s” shows hypocritical evangelicals employing occultic beliefs they say they have long opposed!
So Thomas Ice etc. are twisting truth when they claim I am only a revisionist. Do they really think that my publishers DON’T know what I’ve previously written?
Re arguments, Google “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy” – and also obtain “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer ‘Great Tribulation’ ” (AuthorHouse, 2006) by media personality Joe Ortiz.
1997 – For years Harvest House Publishers has owned and been republishing Lindsey’s book “There’s A New World Coming.” During the same time Lindsey has been peddling his reportedly “new” book “Apocalyse Code” (1997), much of which is word-for-word the same as the Harvest House book – and there’s no notice of “simultaneous publishing” in either book! Talk about pretrib greed!
1997 – This is the year I discovered that more than 50 pages of Dallas Seminary professor Merrill Unger’s book “Beyond the Crystal Ball” (Moody Press, 1973) constituted a colossal plagiarism of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970). After Lindsey’s book came out, Unger had complained that Lindsey’s book had plagiarized his classroom lecture notes. It was evident that Unger felt that he too should cash in on his own lectures! (The detailed account of this Dallas Seminary dishonesty is revealed in my 1998 book “The Three R’s.”)
1998 – Tim LaHaye’s “Understanding the Last Days” (1998) plagiarized Lindsey’s “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).
1999 – More than 200 pages (out of 396 pages) in Lindsey’s 1999 book “Vanished Into Thin Air” are virtually carbon copies of pages in his 1983 book “The Rapture” – with no “updated” or “revised” notice included! Lindsey has done the same nervy thing with several of his books, something that has allowed him to live in million-dollar-plus homes and drive cars like Ferraris! (Google “Deceiving and Being Deceived – by Dave MacPherson,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal” and “Thieves’ Marketing” for further evidence of this notably pretrib vice.)
2000 – A Jack Van Impe article “The Moment After” (2000) plagiarized Grant Jeffrey’s book “Final Warning” (1995).
2001 – Since 2001 my web article “Walvoord’s Posttrib ‘Varieties’ – Plus” has been exposing his devious muddying up of posttrib waters. In some of his books he invented four “distinct” and “contradictory” posttrib divisions, claiming that they are either “classic” or “semiclassic” or “futurist” or “dispensational” – distinctions that disappear when analyzed! His “futurist” group holds to a literal future tribulation and a literal millennium but doesn’t embrace “any day” imminency. But his “dispensational” group has the same non-imminency! Moreover, tribulational futurism is found in every group except the first one, and he somehow admitted that a literal millennium is in all four groups! On the other hand, it’s the pretribs who consistently disagree with each other over their chief points and subpoints – but somehow end up agreeing that there will be a pretrib rapture! (See my chapter “A House Divided” in my book “The Incredible Cover-Up.”)
2001 – Since my “Deceiving and Being Deceived” web item which exposed the claims for Pseudo-Ephraem” and “Morgan Edwards” as teachers of pretrib, there has been a piranha-like frenzy on the part of pretrib bodyguards and their duped groupies to “discover” almost anything before 1830 walking upright on two legs that seemed to have at least a remote hint of pretrib! (An exemplary poster boy for such pretrib practice is Grant Jeffrey. To get your money’s worth, Google “Wily Jeffrey.”)
FINALLY: Don’t take my word for any of the above. Read my 300-page book “The Rapture Plot” which has a jillion more documented details on the long-hidden but now-revealed history of the dishonest, 186-year-old, fringe-British-invented, American-merchandised-until-the-real-bad-stuff-happens pretribulation rapture fad. If this book of mine doesn’t “move” you, I will personally refund what you paid for it!
There is no pre trib rapture. Anyone that is selling books and dvds about a pre trib rapture I can say without doubt do not know what they are talking about. God knows the end from the beginning, therefore would god give revelations to someone that makes money from it? Think about that. People believe in a pre trib rapture because they do not understand what the glory of god is (acts 7:55)
The rapture happens on the last day as John mentions 4 times, before then we have a temple period with the glory of god.
No rapture it was invented d Darby 1830s …..seriously we must research before we speak. I’m with Rob on this as I have always known this was not right. Just ask in prayer He will answer if you listen.
Greetings brothers and sisters in the Lord. I read all the comments given and know many hours of study went into what you have shared. Both sides have good points on this very heated topic. I was raised with the teaching of dispensationalism and I do believe in the Lord’s return before the days of wrath. It is my sincere belief that we must stay in the cleft of the rock our Christ Jesus. With all diligence and compassion to call the lost to Christ before it is eternally too late for them. According to 1 John 3: 2-3 We keep ourselves pure by having this hope in us that Christ shall appear and when we see him we shall be like him as he is pure. My spirit cries out to the Lord for his will to be done on this earth through us his body. For peace of mind in these last days before the Last Days we keep our minds on him. From this moment whether pre, mid or post tribbers we should be looking for Him; not one of us knows the day nor the hour only the Father. Be found waiting, watching and working in his harvest fields for the gathering of precious souls. If we are blood bought we will see him coming, but let us not have empty hands with no sheaves to present to him. Jesus is coming everyone!
If you indeed “believe in the Lord’s return before the days of wrath”, then please explain two returns of Christ and support this with scripture.
I don’t see it.
Terrific site here! Some articles backing up Rob can be found on renowned Bible teacher Treena Gisborn’s equally great blog “Wolves in Sheep’s Clothing.”
You also might find these seldom spoke of end-time prophecies interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwYX6Zy5E50&t=451s
“First resurrection” takes place at the END of the Book of Revelation, not when the first seal is opened. If the Saints have been raptured prior to the Great Tribulation, then the “first resurrection” of Revelation 20 would be the SECOND resurrection.
The “last trumpet” of 1 Corinthians 15, heralding the imperishable resurrection, cannot be at the beginning of the opening of the 7 seals, because there are seven angels blowing trumpets AFTER the seventh seal has been opened (Revelation 8).
If there is a “pre-trib rapture”, then why is it NOT mentioned in Chapter 5 or 6 of Revelation?
Conclusion: the pre-trib rapture not true. It is wishful thinking based on poor logic and a faulty interpretation of the whole counsel of God by well intentioned Christians.